Single action vs. double action differences

[RackedShotty]

Hi there

Just finished my PAL/RPAL courses and wanted to sort out some lingering questions hope I am in the right spot.

With the double, on semi auto, I know some differences would include the slide safety, the trigger shape, and the hammer not being exposed on some models.
With the single action the trigger is often solid or a distinctly different shape and...

here is my question

The instructor was talking about something related to the firing pin and how dropping a single action on the ground can sometimes result in misfires where a double action wouldn't, and a double being safer and that's why most law enforcement use a double.

At any rate, the course was great but as you know time is limited and we focused more on practical handling and basic information to pass the written, I didn't really get the specific differences clearly explained.

ALSO
For revolver action, which has which kind of safety? I know one has a plate that IS the safety, and one has like, a plate and WITHOUT it the gun wont fire, I forget which is which. I am pretty sure the single action has the firing plate you need and the double action has the hammer guard plate but I forget.


Thanks very much!

[Tactical72]

Where are you from? I think the best way to learn about the differences is a hands on approach. I'm sure there are a few members here who would be happy to get together and help you.


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[lone-wolf]

Where are you from? I think the best way to learn about the differences is a hands on approach. I'm sure there are a few members here who would be happy to get together and help you.


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I'm going with this. SA and DA can come in all shapes and sizes, I wouldn't say there's a surefire way to identify them(safeties?! some have none). If introduced to a new firearm, the manual and people already familiar to firearm are the best ways to learn.
I have no idea what a plate on a revolver is, and the only safety for one I recall is half cocked, and a cross bolt blocking the hammer from hitting the firing pin(trigger still releases the hammer, but no boom). And then, some revolvers that can be fired DA, can usually be fired as a single action too.

[Strewth]

I'm sorry, I don't understand the first question? Was your instructor talking about a cocked (hammer back) single action vs. an uncocked (hammer forward) double action?
As to your second question, are you talking about the transfer bar between the hammer and firing pin found on many (all?) modern revolvers?
Here's a picture?

The transfer bar is the mechanical contact between the hammer and firing pin, in revolvers so equipped, the hammer cannot physically touch the firing pin, the transfer bar is raised when the hammer is cocked, so that with the hammer down the revolver is drop safe. The transfer bar safety can be found on both SA and DA revolvers?

Edit: Very much agree with Tactical72 that hands on is best.

[BrotherRockeye]

Welcome to GOC.

I was planning to offer constructive input til I read your user name...the term "shotty" in your user name makes me want to poke yer eye...

you'll understand when you read the "pet peeve" thread.

No offense but I'm putting you on my ignore list!

[RackedShotty]

Hi thanks all for the replies.

lonewolf and Tactical I'm in Toronto. Not really a lot of opportunity to make it out to ranges and socialize just yet, kind of just want to bolster my theory at this point, read up and keep on top of things as best as I can until work permits me to move out to a place where I can find a good range and start affording to buy the guns I want. I agree the hands-on approach is best though!

Strewth in class we were pointing out the basic differences between a single action semi-auto pistol and double action semi-auto pistol, and one of the main visual cues is the trigger and also there are things like the hammer not being exposed on some double-actions i.e. glocks, with the single action sometimes having the more prominent lip below the hammer much like single action revolvers, etc. etc. There were a few, but then I asked him, What is the reason for the trigger shape difference? And he mentioned it was related to the firing pin, then mentioned on a tangent that the way single action semi-auto firing pins work they are easier to go off by accident if you drop them vs. a double action which won't, and that's why most law enforcement carry the double action. I may have misinterpreted his comments though.

The reason I ask is because I really like the 1911 .45 and plan to buy it one day butI felt single action semi-autos were a little unsafe due to what I had heard (again most likely my misinterpretation) so I wanted to confirm things.

Transfer bar - I thought this was there in order to transfer power from the hammer to the cartridge or something, and WITHOUT it the round wouldn't fire (?)
And then there was another safety I forget the name of which actually blocks the hammer from striking the firing pin as one would imagine.

Brother Rockeye sorry man had no idea too late to change it? I would also like the name RackedSemiauto

[kennymo]

All guns are unsafe if you do unsafe things with them. There are millions of 1911's out there, and I don't know anyone who's had an accidental discharge. They also have a grip safety to prevent them from discharging when out of your grasp. As for the difference between single and double action, there are hundreds of different flavours out there, and the restricted course is kept very basic to squeeze everything into a day. Your best bet is to learn about the gun you want to use or own, learn all the controls thoroughly before you ever put ammo anywhere near it, and (most importantly) NEVER point a gun at anything you don't want destroyed. That last one will make this sport/hobby one of the safest things you've ever done.
You're right to approach with caution and a want for safety, but there's no reason to be frightened by a particular action or type of gun. All can be enjoyed in a perfectly safe fashion, it's all about knowing your gun and behaving in a safe manner. And as you learn, you'll probably find that your instructor isn't the be all end all of knowledge. Mine was pretty good, but I've heard some real horror stories of 'but my instructor told me'.

And don't worry too much about BR, just some friendly razzing (I think)....

[Kane63]

then mentioned on a tangent that the way single action semi-auto firing pins work they are easier to go off by accident if you drop them vs. a double action which won't, and that's why most law enforcement carry the double action. I may have misinterpreted his comments though.

If the firearm is drop safe then it can be double action, single action, full auto, whatever you want, and unless the trigger is pulled as it drops it should not fire. On a Glock, when it is racked the firing pin is kept
basically at half cock, as you pull the trigger it brings the firing pin to full cock and it can fire. If there is a failure of a part or the gun is dropped it should not fire because there is not enough energy from a firing pin striking at half cock to ignite the primer. Many would argue that a Glock is a Glock and not really a single action or a double action though.

[lone-wolf]

"The 1911 pistol remains popular as an alternate duty weapon, including with the LAPD, and agencies such as the Long Beach (Calif.) Police Department train with it as the primary academy duty weapon."

"NYPD’s requirement for a 12 pound trigger pull weight."

"So even with the P226, which was designed to be double action for the first round and single action for every round thereafter, the NYPD requires it to operate in “double action ONLY” mode."

Just cause it's what the cops do, doesn't mean it makes sense. And just cause a course instructor said it, doesn't mean it's true.

[BrotherRockeye]

Brother Rockeye sorry man had no idea too late to change it? I would also like the name RackedSemiauto

just bustin yer balls mister

And don't worry too much about BR, just some friendly razzing (I think)....

did the big grinning smiley face make it too obvious?

[kennymo]

did the big grinning smiley face make it too obvious?

Had to turn down the sensitivity on my sarcastic humour detector after that one, fricken thing wouldn't stop beeping....

[RackedShotty]

kennymo you're right that's a good approach, I should just start by learning as much as possible about the gun I want. I am interested in owning a 1911 .45 so hence my original concern but yeah safety first and there should be no problems. I like the idea that before joining most clubs there's a 3 month period of observation with the range master (or so I was explained).. I wouldn't feel safe out there on my own at first anyways.

lone-wolf that cleared it up a bit more, I had forgotten about DAO mode where the slider doesn't rack the next one for you.
I was reading some on Wikipedia that with some single actions, leaving it uncocked is actually the worst thing but it didn't' say why. Still grasping here but I think its cuz that allows pin/primer contact (on older models not law enforcement Glocks) so a halfcock was actually a recommended carry mode in WW2 or something. So much to learn. But then as Kane says unless fully cocked there shouldnt be enough power.

Kane I think what I heard at the course was (I think!) as I mentioned above the older single actions uncocked and chambered would have essentially a firing pin resting against the primer cap and this was prone to going off from shock but he was probably talking about the old old days or something. I guess most modern versions would be 'drop safe' for sure so I should stop worrying!

BrotherRockEye good to know thanks. Ill try to refer to shot guns as shot guns from now on

[kennymo]

No observation here, pay cash dollars, sign waiver and go shoot unsupervised to your heart's content! I think that's either an Ontario thing or a club level thing. You'll learn that the playing field is currently not level across the country unfortunately....

[Kane63]

Kane I think what I heard at the course was (I think!) as I mentioned above the older single actions uncocked and chambered would have essentially a firing pin resting against the primer cap and this was prone to going off from shock but he was probably talking about the old old days or something. I guess most modern versions would be 'drop safe' for sure so I should stop worrying!

That's like authentic cowboy era revolver stuff. Even though it was an actual issue, they just started carrying with one empty chamber and the hammer would rest there. Voila, no discharge.

Police cruisers with 870s would also carry them without a round in the chamber because if they got into a collision the gun, with a live round in the chamber, could fire. Not a drop safe firearm.

Not all modern firearms are drop safe either, even if it is I would do my best to not drop the firearm.

[Mark-II]

I wouldn't worry about the 1911. You won't be carrying it around in Condition 1, using it under extreme stress (unless you're a really horrid shot), and I've never ever seen anyone go from being ready on the firing line to dropping a pistol for no reason at all.

Get one and enjoy it. Avoid models with a firing pin block unless you have tiny dexterous fingers and a prehensile tail to help get it all back together again after detail stripping the thing