Alternative News Media - Where does it belong on GOC?

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Harbl you're going to have to humour me as I seem to have gotten myself confused. CGN has "limited" the discussion on their forum of so called "tin foil" issues. You listed a number of "authors" in the alternative media that you follow elsewhere. I believe you suggested a possible forum (or sub-forum) for discussion of those "alternative/tin foil" topics on this web site.

I'm missing the tie-in to GOC somehow. I personally don't follow the alternative media nor other theorists but do know that the discussions are out there on the web. IF interested, I could track them down on their own "turf" I imagine. Not all of my "needs" are met by GOC or CGN but I manage to sift through these sites as well as a host of others for the firearm/hunting/restoration information and news that interests me. If it's available elsewhere as you have mentioned, is it necessary to also have it available on this site? A narrow niche sub-forum doesn't appear to be a big draw in my humble opinion and this is where my confusion probably stems from.

Not flaming, just trying to follow the discussion.
 
Please note these are my personal views and not those of GOC.

As Loki pointed out we have sections now, news for any news, prepping for prepping, a gold/silver thread, etc. if people want a investing section we could look at making a sticky or maybe a sub section in prepping? Right now the membership is great with posting topics in the correct spots. If its about preparing for a week out in the bush it could go under prepping. OH NO!!!!! The Zombies are coming maybe best in OT, silver has a good chance of dropping by 5% would go in the silver thread, etc.



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Harbl you're going to have to humour me as I seem to have gotten myself confused. CGN has "limited" the discussion on their forum of so called "tin foil" issues. You listed a number of "authors" in the alternative media that you follow elsewhere. I believe you suggested a possible forum (or sub-forum) for discussion of those "alternative/tin foil" topics on this web site.

I'm missing the tie-in to GOC somehow. I personally don't follow the alternative media nor other theorists but do know that the discussions are out there on the web. IF interested, I could track them down on their own "turf" I imagine. Not all of my "needs" are met by GOC or CGN but I manage to sift through these sites as well as a host of others for the firearm/hunting/restoration information and news that interests me. If it's available elsewhere as you have mentioned, is it necessary to also have it available on this site? A narrow niche sub-forum doesn't appear to be a big draw in my humble opinion and this is where my confusion probably stems from.

Not flaming, just trying to follow the discussion.

I believe a thread rename is in order to clarify ;)

... and done.

The thing about the alternative media is it absolutely epitomizes free market capitalism.

In a free market, word of mouth among consumers speaking positively or negatively about a product or services creates (or removes) demand for the product or service. If I read something I find useful and share it with others - if they read it and find it insightful as well, we have a discussion about it (building community). If more people find it useful they share it, and the supplier of that product/service sees increased demand for and appropriately increased profit incentive to continue to provide more of that same quality of service/product. The opposite is true as well - if someone finds something useless and share it - the supplier pays the price with the decreased reputation hurting their ability to bring their product to market as they take losses from the decreased demand.

Why do you think Feedback scores are so important? Because it's word of mouth about your reputation as both a producer and consumer.

As it relates to alternative news media - the same hold true. If I post something from Alex Jones or Glenn Beck that turns out to be total BS and I fanatically support them, my reputation is damaged but so does their reputation as well. Conversely, if I post something from The Dollar Vigilante or Sovereign Man - and what they say turns out to be true and helps people create value for themselves - my reputation improves as does those suppliers.

The thing is - when it comes to e-Commerce pushing tangible products is very difficult with razor thing margins and extraordinarily competition among suppliers. Where the big and eas(ier)y money is at is in generating ad revenue through increased traffic - this revenue being the very lifeblood of communities like GOC/CGN. That being said, all the cards are in the hands of users.

No users means no traffic means no ad revenue means no market to move tangible product.

Saavy young internet user does't think the way Boomers or older Gen-Xers do. They don't want to be told what to do and they want to test the boundaries they are in. Why do you think there's an enormous resurgence of young gun owners? I worked at a retail gun shop for 2 years and the VAST majority of my clients were young kids, 16 years old to early 30's. The reason being they have the tools to allow them to be amazingly well informed and they know how to use those tools to accumulate and aggregate information in a way their parents could never imagine.

They're not scared by the myriad of rules and regulations from 20 years ago - because they have the tools at their disposal to read them and the desire to try to understand them. Unlike their parents who were intimidated by the volume of inaccessible laws thrown their way into giving up their guns, young gun owners today simply shrug at those same laws because they have tools at their disposal to navigate through them.

Incidentally, I believe the vast majority of consumers of Alternative news media are people in the same demographic as these young gun owners - for the very same reason. Alternative news pushes boundaries the corporate main stream media NEVER will.

Ultimately, that's why I feel very passionately about the alternative media and why I think forums that are tailored to this kind of audience (gun owners) should not regulate alternative media AT ALL. It is a vast externally unregulated, internally self-regulating free market of information.

Moreover and most importantly, I think it represents the future and the best hope western civilization has at recovering from the fascist, debt-induced economic catastrophe that is on the brink of destroying the standard of living it enjoys.
 
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I do agree with you Harbl, MSM is bought in order to not publish and air a good portion of current events.

However you do have to realize that these forums are businesses, and that does include GOC. Now GOC does hold itself to a different set of rules than other competing forums, but once they also become large enough to be pulling in + or - $75K by sponsorships and paying business members you can pretty well guarantee things will be a little different from the small community feeling we currently have here. At that point it would be in GOC's best interest to listen when the majority of paying businesses and sponsors say they don't want something on the site, and I wouldn't be suprised that if it comes to losing the sponsor base or tightening rules that GOC tightens some rules. The admin group may be against it now in wake of the past years events and this place still having new forum smell, but just wait until the decision is $$$$$$ vs rules and regulation and you can pretty well predict what will win out.

Of course a forum is useless without the membership, but I haven't noticed that large of an outcry, just the usual people that complain at every little change doing their usual (and this is as simple as smilies FFS). If 50% of the membership wanted alternative media and would walk without it, well then they might be listened to. As it is it's a very select few, and others that are also vocal just don't like limitiations on free speech (understandably, I'm one of them but I got over it as it's a PRIVATE owned business).

The hard truth of the matter is a sub-forum for tinfoilers might very well torpedo GOC's attempt at large sponsorships. If the big players in this industry wanted to advertise to the alternative media crowd then they would do so directly. I could very well see from a business prospective that if I were to choose from competing advertising agencies and my business depended on semi-professionalism I wouldn't go with the one who catered to the fringe element. Such a catering to the alternative media crowd could very well hurt GOC's attempt at sponsorship more than 'be well received', and if it is well received it's a select few members that don't bring any $$$$ to the table where as a sponsor does.

Now as I've explained it from a GOC perspective; why would it be any different with any other community also generating revenue through advertising? They're evil when they do it but GOC is good to do the same? You have to think of it as a business, and business may not do so well or look professional with a bunch of people constantly screaming "THE END IS FRIGGIN NIGH!!". Really what you're proposing is a Conservative version of Rabble, and you know what kind of credibility they have.

Well said loki,

You've hit the nail right on the head, from day one we've always wanted to hold ourselves (GOC) to a more professional standard, this was one of the founding principals. At the time there was a void in Canada and a professional pro-gun outlet was needed. That's where we came in, we experienced the current offerings and new we could do better, not just for the entertainment aspect but for the gun community as well. This is just our beginning, but the future looks bright and I think I can speak for all the admin when I say we remain humble in having this great opportunity to represent the gun community.

The only thing I disagree with in your statement is the "money rules all" notion. When it comes to up holding our original vision and this forums foundation, money takes a back seat. This was an agreement we made from day one, I guess this was another founding principal you could say, for me personally it was more a moral issue. Board sponsors shouldn't dictate the feel of the forum and community, if they don't like it, they can leave, there will always be more sponsors. The fact of the matter is, we're not here to get rich, nor will we. We genuinely care about the community and want to promote Canadian gun culture. For some reason this concept is unbelievable to most, not sure why but I guess that's just the reality of it. All we can do is set an example and lead. A group of people trying to do some good in our community shouldn't be so taboo.

As far as this new forum/topic thing goes, I don't think it's needed, we have a few "tinfoil" topics and I believe that will suffice. Again, professional is the key word here.

Just my 2 cents
 
Well said loki,

You've hit the nail right on the head, from day one we've always wanted to hold ourselves (GOC) to a more professional standard, this was one of the founding principals. At the time there was a void in Canada and a professional pro-gun outlet was needed. That's where we came in, we experienced the current offerings and new we could do better, not just for the entertainment aspect but for the gun community as well. This is just our beginning, but the future looks bright and I think I can speak for all the admin when I say we remain humble in having this great opportunity to represent the gun community.

The only thing I disagree with in your statement is the "money rules all" notion. When it comes to up holding our original vision and this forums foundation, money takes a back seat. This was an agreement we made from day one, I guess this was another founding principal you could say, for me personally it was more a moral issue. Board sponsors shouldn't dictate the feel of the forum and community, if they don't like it, they can leave, there will always be more sponsors. The fact of the matter is, we're not here to get rich, nor will we. We genuinely care about the community and want to promote Canadian gun culture. For some reason this concept is unbelievable to most, not sure why but I guess that's just the reality of it. All we can do is set an example and lead. A group of people trying to do some good in our community shouldn't be so taboo.

As far as this new forum/topic thing goes, I don't think it's needed, we have a few "tinfoil" topics and I believe that will suffice. Again, professional is the key word here.

Just my 2 cents

Looks like the move on CGN to pretty much censor the alternative media is causing some pretty hearty discussion over there too.

I agree the whole idea of a separate forum was more of a suggestion to CGN as opposed to over here - but again I reiterate, I think it's a bad call for them to adopt a policy of censorship the way they did. Really, I get the impression that a handful of mods there just didn't agree with a lot of stuff being posted and decided to filter it from general circulation to prevent discussion.

Again, I hope the lesson (especially for GOC's owners and mods) is learnt that if you want to alienate your user base (who in are your clients), follow the lead of CGN and regulate and censor discussions. My impression as well surrounding GOC's history is due to poor decisions made by CGN's owners/mods, there was a fairly large exodus of users (many forced), creating the demand for alternatives.

I think their recent News regulation policy is another example of one poor decisions, and I believe one that will chase a lot of their users away. As I said, I kept going back to CGN for the EE and for the Pony discussions, but I think their posture of limiting discussion on their board justifies making an exodus.

I hope their loss is GOC's gain, because some of the folks who were worked up about the changes are some pretty sharp folks (not myself, of course, but certainly some of their other offended regulars).
 
Looks like the move on CGN to pretty much censor the alternative media is causing some pretty hearty discussion over there too.

I agree the whole idea of a separate forum was more of a suggestion to CGN as opposed to over here - but again I reiterate, I think it's a bad call for them to adopt a policy of censorship the way they did. Really, I get the impression that a handful of mods there just didn't agree with a lot of stuff being posted and decided to filter it from general circulation to prevent discussion.

Again, I hope the lesson (especially for GOC's owners and mods) is learnt that if you want to alienate your user base (who in are your clients), follow the lead of CGN and regulate and censor discussions. My impression as well surrounding GOC's history is due to poor decisions made by CGN's owners/mods, there was a fairly large exodus of users (many forced), creating the demand for alternatives.

I think their recent News regulation policy is another example of one poor decisions, and I believe one that will chase a lot of their users away. As I said, I kept going back to CGN for the EE and for the Pony discussions, but I think their posture of limiting discussion on their board justifies making an exodus.

I hope their loss is GOC's gain, because some of the folks who were worked up about the changes are some pretty sharp folks (not myself, of course, but certainly some of their other offended regulars).

Exodus? The hyperbole is strong with this one.

First since the upgrade in the Vbulletin CGN has grown by more users than GOC has as an entire memberbase. That's two months at most that it took, and CGN has done this without mass PM's inviting people from another forum (poor form BTW guys, a big forum etiquette faux pas). If it were an exodus I would think we would be seeing a faster membership growth in the other Canadian gun forums.

Also Harbl I looked in on your "Manly thread of pink ponies" at CGN for the first time today, the change in title caught my attention as I thought it was another "no touchy" subject which made me wonder what would have gone on. Gotta say that seeing it was just you taking your ball and leaving the sandbox while still leaving an email addy presumably for the attempt to invite members here looks to be in very poor show to say it politely. If you had a problem and enough support your opinion then voice it in OT, if enough show support then perhaps there could be a change.

I have no clue what went on there, it looks like some people complained about the amount of fringe and outright out to lunch "news" articles. I think you have to admit it was getting bad and required moderation, and that's what happens with areas of discussion like this when they get bad; they get moderated. I don't like being told what to do or what to speak about as much as the next guy, but that's what happens on a PRIVATE forum. Seriously try to start a "manscaping" or "worlds best private female body part" thread here and see how long it lasts. You have no right to free speech here, or on CGN as it's a PRIVATE owned forum. Now that the dust has settled it seems to be the same old show around there with only the rules in place to moderate the idocy that was going on.

You can bet that if the new digest around here got inundated with a tribute to Alex Jones and prison planet (yes this is me using hyperbole to get across a point of ludacris tinfoil needing moderation, I realize this wasn't exactly the case) with no actual fisical proof to back up his (sometimes ludacris) claims that this new digest will be moderated as well. Sack up man and go fight the good fight, if others support you with a reasonable and logical debate then you may effect change. Taking your ball and playing elsewhere will only lead to you abanding other communities such as this one as they develop moderation rules with growth and requirement due to idiocy.

*Edit* As a side note if I seem to be a little stand offish with this I'm getting sick of the "us vs them" attitude in the general shooting and online Canadian communities. Not meant to be directed at the members as such as truly I feel dilution through elitism only hurts the cause of firearms ownership rather than helps it. If anything we should use all the tools and communities we have to join forces rather than seperate and dilute. I'm willing to put up with some issues that may bother me in orgs, forums, and clubs so long as it keeps a cohesive message without infighting and elitism and I feel thinking one community is superior to another only serves to achieve the opposite of what we all want. My $0.02.
 
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