Try it before you buy it. You may think you want a Lamborghini, but a Corvette might suit you better.
newbie with pal, was embarrassed to talk at gun shop
- Thread starter akimiski
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Rory McCanuck
Super Moderator
A 'tactical' stock will almost always have considerably more felt recoil than a traditional stock.
With all of these guns, find one that fits you; pick a spot on the wall and bring the gun up. If the sights line up on the spot you picked, you will find you have much more success.
harbl_the_cat
New member
Welcome to the forum and the sport.
I'll add a general nugget of info that applies with EVERY discipline of shooting you get into:
Whatever your budget is, buy the most inexpensive gun you can to do the kind of shooting you want to, and spend the bulk of your money on ammo and practice.
I'm quite serious about reloading and "practical" marksmanship, and currently I'm running 2x Mossberg MVP Patrol Rifle's in .223 and 1x Ruger American Predator in .223.
I also have a Remington 700 SPS Tactical and Savage Model 10 TR both in .308.
Nothing there is particularly high end, but with the right load, I can consistently land 1.5-2 MOA groups and hit a 20" plate at 500 meters with all 5 of those guns (I've yet to shoot further with the .308's - but I'm confident I could do it).
I won't win any competitions with that level of performance, but I can get a LOT of data and practice all the important skills of rifle marksmanship with those capabilities (my frame of reference is as a former Canadian Army Small Arms Training range operator).
I'd say any 1 of those are perfect builds for a new rifle shooters to learn the basics of rifle marksmanship.
If I were new into the sport, I'd have picked just 1, it's a toss up between either the Ruger AP or the Mossberg MVP if I just wanted to learn rifle marksmanship... it's too much of a toss up with my .308's for hunting... although I also have a Marlin XL7 I bought and never really shot that would probably be a better hunting rifle than either the Remington 700 or the Savage 10 TR.
To just my .223's I have reloading components to load about 10k rounds (my 300 yard "Plinking loads" and 500 yard "Precision loads").
To my .308's, I only have enough reloading components to load about 1500 such loads, so I'm spending more of my time trying to source more large rifle components so I can load and shoot more.
I have a personal reloaders philosophy of: "For every plinking round I load to shoot, I want to load and save 2 to shoot 20 years in the future" (It's 1:1 for my precision rounds).
(One thing to note, though is a .223 is too underpowered for most big game hunting - but I'm more interested in target shooting than hunting, and shooting/reloading .223 is more inexpensive compared to shooting/reloading a .308, which itself is pretty cheap among other large rifle calibers.)
I'll add a general nugget of info that applies with EVERY discipline of shooting you get into:
Whatever your budget is, buy the most inexpensive gun you can to do the kind of shooting you want to, and spend the bulk of your money on ammo and practice.
I'm quite serious about reloading and "practical" marksmanship, and currently I'm running 2x Mossberg MVP Patrol Rifle's in .223 and 1x Ruger American Predator in .223.
I also have a Remington 700 SPS Tactical and Savage Model 10 TR both in .308.
Nothing there is particularly high end, but with the right load, I can consistently land 1.5-2 MOA groups and hit a 20" plate at 500 meters with all 5 of those guns (I've yet to shoot further with the .308's - but I'm confident I could do it).
I won't win any competitions with that level of performance, but I can get a LOT of data and practice all the important skills of rifle marksmanship with those capabilities (my frame of reference is as a former Canadian Army Small Arms Training range operator).
I'd say any 1 of those are perfect builds for a new rifle shooters to learn the basics of rifle marksmanship.
If I were new into the sport, I'd have picked just 1, it's a toss up between either the Ruger AP or the Mossberg MVP if I just wanted to learn rifle marksmanship... it's too much of a toss up with my .308's for hunting... although I also have a Marlin XL7 I bought and never really shot that would probably be a better hunting rifle than either the Remington 700 or the Savage 10 TR.
To just my .223's I have reloading components to load about 10k rounds (my 300 yard "Plinking loads" and 500 yard "Precision loads").
To my .308's, I only have enough reloading components to load about 1500 such loads, so I'm spending more of my time trying to source more large rifle components so I can load and shoot more.
I have a personal reloaders philosophy of: "For every plinking round I load to shoot, I want to load and save 2 to shoot 20 years in the future" (It's 1:1 for my precision rounds).
(One thing to note, though is a .223 is too underpowered for most big game hunting - but I'm more interested in target shooting than hunting, and shooting/reloading .223 is more inexpensive compared to shooting/reloading a .308, which itself is pretty cheap among other large rifle calibers.)
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Thanks for the tip in bold there, i am sure rest of the details you shared will eventually sink in
Once question: should I go with 308 or 6.5 Creedmoor and why? (Keeping aside minor difference in pricing and availability, is there a reason to buy .308 instead of 6.5 for target practice (100y, 300y, 500y) and for some light hunting (white tail/Elk)
Rory McCanuck
Super Moderator
I have a 6.5CM, and I quite like it, but it's a target gun.
The fellows at the LGS (Local Gun Shop) passed on many reports of deer getting hit with the Creedmoor and walking away.
I'm a big fan of the 6.5x55 Swede, and it's probably killed more moose than any other gun, but I'm not sure that there's really much difference that an animal will notice.
So, take that for what it's worth...
Welcome to the world of firearms where things don't always make sense, and people can have very firm convictions based on nothing more than 'I have one, so it must be the best ever.'
The fellows at the LGS (Local Gun Shop) passed on many reports of deer getting hit with the Creedmoor and walking away.
I'm a big fan of the 6.5x55 Swede, and it's probably killed more moose than any other gun, but I'm not sure that there's really much difference that an animal will notice.
So, take that for what it's worth...
Welcome to the world of firearms where things don't always make sense, and people can have very firm convictions based on nothing more than 'I have one, so it must be the best ever.'
harbl_the_cat
New member
Thanks for the tip in bold there, i am sure rest of the details you shared will eventually sink in
Once question: should I go with 308 or 6.5 Creedmoor and why? (Keeping aside minor difference in pricing and availability, is there a reason to buy .308 instead of 6.5 for target practice (100y, 300y, 500y) and for some light hunting (white tail/Elk)
I've heard 6.5 CM gives better long range ballistics and less felt recoil than a .308, but a 6.5 typically runs smaller bullets - which means less killing power and less of a "ping" on steel.
I also almost NEVER find 6.5 CM brass on the range - my guess is everyone who shots it reloads it, whereas .308 brass is much more common.
I'd say I find 20-50x as much reloadable .308 brass than I do 6.5cm.
As Canadians, that's a VERY important factor to take into account as well: ammo availability, because it's not uncommon for some calibers of ammunition to be unavailable (or in very low supplies) for years at a time.
That's why a lot of guys reload (myself included) - because we've lived through ammo shortages and it's not fun.
For the better part of the past 15 years it usually happens when an American Democratic is president.
.308 will be easier to find on the shelves at your LGS. If you go hunting and you forget your ammo at home, finding .308 will be easier.
If you're looking for a dual-purpose rifle (target/hunting) beware of the barrel profile. You probably don't want to be lugging around a bull barrel on a deer or moose hunt.
You mentioned Elk. 22 tags available last year. I wish you the best of luck, but make sure you get your shooting shorted out first. You don't want to miss that shot.
If you're looking for a dual-purpose rifle (target/hunting) beware of the barrel profile. You probably don't want to be lugging around a bull barrel on a deer or moose hunt.
You mentioned Elk. 22 tags available last year. I wish you the best of luck, but make sure you get your shooting shorted out first. You don't want to miss that shot.
Another vote for .308, because unless you're shooting at VERY long distances, .308 will do all that 6.5C will do. As mentioned, it's easier to find, and usually cheaper, too.
And good advice on the barrel profile, which points up the difference between a hunting rifle and target rifle. Neither works well in the other discipline.
That's not say you can't shoot your scoped hunting rifle out to great distances, but you aren't going to be competitive with it. And as mentioned, you won't want to haul an F-class rifle into the bush to go hunting. Well, not more than once.
And getting back to cost- I don't know your budget, but with even .308 running at about $2.50 per round (quick grab from Cabelas and 150gr bullets, and there were a lot more pricey options), just think about the cost:
BANG (there goes $2.50) BANG (again) BANG (hmmm) BANG (well there goes 10 bucks)... Put it this way: when you do shoot that stuff off, SAVE YOUR BRASS, because you'll either stop shooting completely, or start rolling your own. Brass can be used many times.
There's a reason why so many are taking up rimfire: cost.
And good advice on the barrel profile, which points up the difference between a hunting rifle and target rifle. Neither works well in the other discipline.
That's not say you can't shoot your scoped hunting rifle out to great distances, but you aren't going to be competitive with it. And as mentioned, you won't want to haul an F-class rifle into the bush to go hunting. Well, not more than once.
And getting back to cost- I don't know your budget, but with even .308 running at about $2.50 per round (quick grab from Cabelas and 150gr bullets, and there were a lot more pricey options), just think about the cost:
BANG (there goes $2.50) BANG (again) BANG (hmmm) BANG (well there goes 10 bucks)... Put it this way: when you do shoot that stuff off, SAVE YOUR BRASS, because you'll either stop shooting completely, or start rolling your own. Brass can be used many times.
There's a reason why so many are taking up rimfire: cost.
harbl_the_cat
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Grimlock
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Neither of us can shoot well enough to notice the difference between .308 and 6.5 CM. And you can buy it in the Canadian Tire in Kenora. The old guys actually shoot 30-06.
If you're new to shooting, why not buy a .22 LR? Way cheaper to shoot. Less distance to walk to your targets. You'll pay for the rifle in ammo cost before you get any good.
Aniest
Well-known member
First: this is amazingly simple and good information:
Second, you were right on track here, but I suggest a 700 MilSpec in .308Win, as your first thoughts on the durability and use of the pump and bolt action are good:
I can tell you from hands on real world experience with looking at harvesting game, from small white tail deer to moose & elk, the .308Win outperforms the 6.5 Creedmoor by a little bit. That's just my mileage, as yours might vary. That is also using the 6.5 and .308 calibres to their advantages: 6.5 for deer on open prairies and 308 for everything. Just everything. I carry a .308Win, where legal (not in parks) with hand loaded 220 grain Sierra round nose bullets should a bear or other animal be a threat against my life.
EDIT - Number one tip when doing scopes and mount: Don't let anyone mount the scope too high. You need proper cheek weld to be a good shooter when hunting. Any large diameter scope (like bigger than 42mm objective), in my opinion, requires a cheek rest adapter, riser, pad or something. Again, advice is worth what it is... free.
- - - -
Now, shotguns are something different. The plastic adjustable stocks are great if you plan to share it with those of different body sizes than you, or want to get a combo gun with both the long choked barrel as well as a very short barrel. The basic Mossberg pump shotguns, with both barrel sets, are great and no gun owner should be without one.
When you get into wood stocked guns there is non-adjustable measurements, a slew of them. In a rifle a lot of the time using scope bases and rings can adjust how to aim a rifle to fit you. A shotgun does this by these non-changeable measurements. Fit of a wood stock shotgun is paramount. Here is a good guide for you to read some time: https://www.theyorkshiregent.com/shooting/gun-fitting-guide-fit-shotgun/
The super shortened explanation: a solid stock (plastic, fibre glass, composite or wood) is best, and unless you are a very generic person trying out, swinging and mounting the gun to your shoulder is mandatory. The top two things that keep me in a store trying, trying and trying out over and over again is: second, buying shoes... and first, buying a shotgun.
- - - -
So, you will get lots of advice. Most gun owners buy a few, sell a few, and learn their likes and dislikes. Your gut instinct went with the 590: my opinion, is a good choice. Your first instinct was the 700: my opinion, that's a good choice too.
Oh, By the way: big disclaimer. Cause this is great advice too:
Second, you were right on track here, but I suggest a 700 MilSpec in .308Win, as your first thoughts on the durability and use of the pump and bolt action are good:
I can tell you from hands on real world experience with looking at harvesting game, from small white tail deer to moose & elk, the .308Win outperforms the 6.5 Creedmoor by a little bit. That's just my mileage, as yours might vary. That is also using the 6.5 and .308 calibres to their advantages: 6.5 for deer on open prairies and 308 for everything. Just everything. I carry a .308Win, where legal (not in parks) with hand loaded 220 grain Sierra round nose bullets should a bear or other animal be a threat against my life.
EDIT - Number one tip when doing scopes and mount: Don't let anyone mount the scope too high. You need proper cheek weld to be a good shooter when hunting. Any large diameter scope (like bigger than 42mm objective), in my opinion, requires a cheek rest adapter, riser, pad or something. Again, advice is worth what it is... free.
- - - -
Now, shotguns are something different. The plastic adjustable stocks are great if you plan to share it with those of different body sizes than you, or want to get a combo gun with both the long choked barrel as well as a very short barrel. The basic Mossberg pump shotguns, with both barrel sets, are great and no gun owner should be without one.
When you get into wood stocked guns there is non-adjustable measurements, a slew of them. In a rifle a lot of the time using scope bases and rings can adjust how to aim a rifle to fit you. A shotgun does this by these non-changeable measurements. Fit of a wood stock shotgun is paramount. Here is a good guide for you to read some time: https://www.theyorkshiregent.com/shooting/gun-fitting-guide-fit-shotgun/
The super shortened explanation: a solid stock (plastic, fibre glass, composite or wood) is best, and unless you are a very generic person trying out, swinging and mounting the gun to your shoulder is mandatory. The top two things that keep me in a store trying, trying and trying out over and over again is: second, buying shoes... and first, buying a shotgun.
- - - -
So, you will get lots of advice. Most gun owners buy a few, sell a few, and learn their likes and dislikes. Your gut instinct went with the 590: my opinion, is a good choice. Your first instinct was the 700: my opinion, that's a good choice too.
Oh, By the way: big disclaimer. Cause this is great advice too:
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Thank you for all you above, .308 is what I am going to get (due to all the reasons you have mentioned able plus I looked at the Ontario Rifle Association where I can make use of the military ranges and they ask for 308) I am going to get it in Tikka T3X Lite Stainless Steel, that looked and felt good in hands. I do want to be able to use for hunting deer so that should work.
For shotgun, it’s going to be Benelli Supernova 28 inch (comfort grip instead of telescopic tactical) so I can use it for skeet and target practice
For shotgun, it’s going to be Benelli Supernova 28 inch (comfort grip instead of telescopic tactical) so I can use it for skeet and target practice
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Go to https://mapleseedrifleman.com/ get on their mailing list and sign up for a shooting clinic in your are when it's offered. Although it revolves around shooting a .22 EVERYTHING that you will learm translate to to all your other shooting.
Look at getting a .22 as it's a great training tool and a lot of fun.
I believe that the .308( I own several 6.5s) is a more versitile bullet in that there are more avalible options( especially if you don't reload... yet) It's a great hunting round(chosing correct bullet for the game) and for target shooting, by the time you've maxed out the range on the .308 for target shoot you'll have a bunch of experience under your belt.
Look at getting a .22 as it's a great training tool and a lot of fun.
I believe that the .308( I own several 6.5s) is a more versitile bullet in that there are more avalible options( especially if you don't reload... yet) It's a great hunting round(chosing correct bullet for the game) and for target shooting, by the time you've maxed out the range on the .308 for target shoot you'll have a bunch of experience under your belt.
That depends on how much you value your time.
Typically, you don't reload for the sole purpose of saving money. Have a look at the reloading section. Prices have obviously changed since those threads were started, but you'll find the information you need. If you're just getting started, your chances of saving any amount of money at all at this point are slim to none. If you want to get into reloading, make sure it's because you're looking for a new hobby and/or you want to load a specific caliber to specific characteristics for a specific purpose. Otherwise, you'll be doing it for the wrong reason.
Typically, you don't reload for the sole purpose of saving money. Have a look at the reloading section. Prices have obviously changed since those threads were started, but you'll find the information you need. If you're just getting started, your chances of saving any amount of money at all at this point are slim to none. If you want to get into reloading, make sure it's because you're looking for a new hobby and/or you want to load a specific caliber to specific characteristics for a specific purpose. Otherwise, you'll be doing it for the wrong reason.
harbl_the_cat
New member
For me to reload .223, I bought most of my components 5-10 years ago when you could get primers for $2/100, bullets for $0.09, and powder for $20/lbs.
Components keep indefinitely if you store them somewhat properly, so does ammo...
So for me to load 1000 rounds of .223, what I paid for my stockpiled components costs me about $180.
I know my loads are equal quality to factory loads that are about $750 per 1000 rounds today.
So for me, the cost savings of reloading are something like 75% but that's just because I've waited VERY long before reloading components I've diligently stored away over the years.
That's the neat part about reloading. If you had the intention of doing it and got everything you needed to do it, the longer you put off doing it, the more rewarding it becomes... both financially and as a hobby...
I think the mind set of reloading simply to save money leads to reloading becoming a chore. If it's a chore then time is money becomes a big factor but IMHO then you're reloading for the wrong reason
My journey into reloading started when it looked like ammo was looking to get scarce( it happens almost on cycle and around the time of US elections). What I discovered was I enjoyed it and found it relaxing, it allowed me to create specific loads to the firearm and application, I got a better understanding of how firearms function( bulet weights,shapes,rifling) and my groups got smaller along with accuracy increace.The cost savings does happen especially in the larger calibers and less popular ones.
I think if you have a lot going on and reloading is a rushed event or a chore then time is money and you probably don't have time or an additional hobby. Reloading is a hobby and when you start looking at your other hobbies on a time cost basis... guess what it's not a hobby
My journey into reloading started when it looked like ammo was looking to get scarce( it happens almost on cycle and around the time of US elections). What I discovered was I enjoyed it and found it relaxing, it allowed me to create specific loads to the firearm and application, I got a better understanding of how firearms function( bulet weights,shapes,rifling) and my groups got smaller along with accuracy increace.The cost savings does happen especially in the larger calibers and less popular ones.
I think if you have a lot going on and reloading is a rushed event or a chore then time is money and you probably don't have time or an additional hobby. Reloading is a hobby and when you start looking at your other hobbies on a time cost basis... guess what it's not a hobby
I enjoy many aspects of reloading, like shutting out everything else and concentrating on the task at hand, I enjoy the precision that goes along with trying to make more and more accurate loads, i also like having components to be able to load up some bullets when non-reloaders are trying to find ammo.
I also enjoy the fact that I can make a loaded round of 9mm for around $0.20 each (I haven't had to buy components in a while) vs around $0,70 each for relatively inexpensive factory ammo.
The above cost doesn't take into account any of my reloading equipment, of which there is a lot, and they don't give that stuff away. By the time you pay for the equipment needed you could have bought alot of factory ammo. I'm not trying to dissuade you from getting into reloading because it is a great hobby, just make sure you really enjoy shooting enough and actually shoot enough to warrant the cost.
There are ways to lower equipment cost, such as buying used, most of the more expensive things don't easily wear out.
I also enjoy the fact that I can make a loaded round of 9mm for around $0.20 each (I haven't had to buy components in a while) vs around $0,70 each for relatively inexpensive factory ammo.
The above cost doesn't take into account any of my reloading equipment, of which there is a lot, and they don't give that stuff away. By the time you pay for the equipment needed you could have bought alot of factory ammo. I'm not trying to dissuade you from getting into reloading because it is a great hobby, just make sure you really enjoy shooting enough and actually shoot enough to warrant the cost.
There are ways to lower equipment cost, such as buying used, most of the more expensive things don't easily wear out.