Transfer certificate or Registration needed for transport?

[metalninja]

Hi Everyone,
I recently gotten into shooting and got my R/PAL. As a first purchase I went with Smith & Wesson M&P 2.0 - Range kit.

I received my order today with it I got a Buyer Transfer certificate. I am wondering if I need to wait to receive the actual registration or can I transport and use my firearm at the range?

Thanks.

 

[linung]

Wait.

Canada Post is slow.

The transfer approval only allows you to take it home.

 

[metalninja]

Thank Linung. How long is the process for registration? Is it mailed same time as the issuing of transfer certificate?

 

[labradort]

Thank Linung. How long is the process for registration? Is it mailed same time as the issuing of transfer certificate?

It depends on backlog. It's sent from a different place. In my case they have my email address so the transfer cert is sent there. I've found it is normally within 2 weeks in my region. It's going to be slower this time of the year due to Christmas mail volume. The CFO likely would tell you 4 to 6 weeks as a canned answer since they don't have tabs on what happens at Miramachi and the like.

 

[IJ22]

You can wait, or you can just go shoot.
A registration certificate is not a transport document, it's a possession document. Your notice of transfer is a de facto registration certificate until your permanent one arrives.

 

[blacksmithden]

You can wait, or you can just go shoot.
A registration certificate is not a transport document, it's a possession document. Your notice of transfer is a de facto registration certificate until your permanent one arrives.

That is 100% not true. Every single time I've called in to the CFC to follow up on a longer than normal transfer for a customer, they remind me that the transfer notice allows me to release the gun to the customer so they can take it home. They then remind me to tell them that they have to wait for the registration certificate before they can take is out to the range (or, leave their home with it for any reason). Now...the odds of getting pulled over or checked at the range by the cops is pretty slim and you MIGHT (likely will) get a pass from the cop if all you have is the transfer notice.

 

[IJ22]

That is 100% not true. Every single time I've called in to the CFC to follow up on a longer than normal transfer for a customer, they remind me that the transfer notice allows me to release the gun to the customer so they can take it home. They then remind me to tell them that they have to wait for the registration certificate before they can take is out to the range (or, leave their home with it for any reason). Now...the odds of getting pulled over or checked at the range by the cops is pretty slim and you MIGHT (likely will) get a pass from the cop if all you have is the transfer notice.

Yup, I've heard that responses from the CFO on this issue vary based on province and weather. Still, there is absolutely nothing in the law that allows for a "certificate of bringing a gun home". If the transfer notice is good for bringing the gun home and keeping it until your reg cert arrives, it's good for absolutely every other function of a registration certificate as well.

 

[blacksmithden]

Yup, I've heard that responses from the CFO on this issue vary based on province and weather. Still, there is absolutely nothing in the law that allows for a "certificate of bringing a gun home". If the transfer notice is good for bringing the gun home and keeping it until your reg cert arrives, it's good for absolutely every other function of a registration certificate as well.

It's a completely useless additional step on the government's part. To the best of my knowledge, no one has EVER received a transfer notice and then not gotten a registration certificate. It's just another way for useless bureaucrats to make us wait a little longer, and keep themselves employed. I'm sure some liberal somewhere has shares in the company that prints the paperwork and mails it.

 

[Swingerguy]

Welcome to GOC.
Have you and everyone you know with a valid email address signed this petition yet? We have to keep those signatures climbing, or you might not have the ability to use that M&P for long.

https://petitions.ourcommons.ca/en/Petition/Sign/e-2341

 

[sltoronto]

I am wondering if I need to wait to receive the actual registration or can I transport and use my firearm at the range?

as this is the first restricted, you will have to wait for:
1) actual printed certificate
2) *.0002 version of RPAL card - make sure to keep and carry the CONDITIONS part of the paper it's glued to (or ask CFO for a printed ATT)

Added: CFO's and CFP's answers to this question may vary, but it all will depend on the decision of the LEO who stopped you.
It could end with your firearm "arrested" and you will have 14 days to produce paperwork to get it "freed".
As all certificates (and cards) are printed in batches by CFC and sent out by regular CP mail , it may take more time this season to arrive.

Up to you to gamble or not .

PS. My last certificate arrived closer to 3 weeks after TN and the firearm (late November)

 

[RangeBob]

This question comes up from time to time. Personally, I wait until the certificate arrives in the snail-mail.

• The criminal code says you must be able to produce the registration certificate "on demand" by a peace officer. If the police officer believes that's the paper certificate and you don't have it, then you get arrested.
• Since the paper certificate is easily faked, police with access to any form of communication (voice phone, radio, computer) check with the CFRO database because it's not the paper certificate but the database that indicates that you are a 'holder' of a registration certificate. Certainly the opposite is true: if you have the paper certificate in your hand, but the database says that certificate has been revoked, then you are not the 'holder' of a registration certificate according to the law.
• When the LGR ended, the Ontario CFO Wyatt declared that the registration was the certificate number. He then said that make/model/serial/pal/date had to be recorded in his log books for non-restricted firearms sales, but not the registration certificate number which no longer existed for non-restricted. This registration certificate number appears on your transfer paperwork. The minister of public safety told the CFOs they were not to record make/model/serial in the log books, the CFO said his interpretation was the law required it, and the conservatives clarified the law.
• If you phone the CFO's office and they say you can go, then in court you'd have the defence of "Officially Induced Error". But you still get arrested, spend $ in court, and it still could go either way.

The CFO's office routinely send ATTs via email.
Maybe they can send registration certificates by email, although I've not heard of anyone getting one.

 

[sltoronto]

The CFO's office routinely send ATTs via email.
Maybe they can send registration certificates by email, although I've not heard of anyone getting one.

CFO approves transfer, Transfer Notice is generated and can be sent by CFO either by e-mail or snail mail to seller and/or buyer, but
registration certificates are printed ONLY by CFC in Miramichi and sent out by snail mail ONLY ..
it's done in weekly batches (similar to printing of R/PALs)

 

[IJ22]

The CFO's office routinely send ATTs via email.
Maybe they can send registration certificates by email, although I've not heard of anyone getting one.

Sure, I get my Notification of Transfer by email all the time.

The difficulty I have with being told I must keep my gun at home is that there is nothing in the law that creates an exemption for being in possession of a restricted firearm without a registration certificate as long as I just bought it and brought it home while I wait for a registration certificate. The way I see it, the NoT either IS a registration certificate, or it IS NOT a registration certificate. It's binary, there is no grey area. You're either fine taking your gun to the range, or you're already breaking the law by having brought your gun home. The CFP and CFO have a lot of discretionary powers, but inventing conditional registration certificates is not one of them.

I'm not going to bother digging one up now, but I'm pretty sure even the NoT says "you may now take possession....". It doesn't say you can only bring it home, and why would it, it's a possession document, not a transport document.

 

[labradort]

It certainly isn't grey area if this is the first registration with an RPAL. After registration of the first restricted, a second RPAL license card is sent out with revised conditions. Those revised conditions include taking it out for the range trip.

We don't have ATT papers anymore, they are said to be "attached" to the RPAL, but this is how they are attached, by expanded conditions and the completed registration of the firearm. I'd agree it is grey to us in terms of explaining it well, but that doesn't mean it is grey to the mechanics of the law.

To take another example, suppose you are getting a hunting license for something were there is a draw. You might learn you've won a spot from the completed draw by some online process or an email. You still need to wait for the license to be in your hands before you can hunt that game.

 

[IJ22]

It certainly isn't grey area if this is the first registration with an RPAL. After registration of the first restricted, a second RPAL license card is sent out with revised conditions. Those revised conditions include taking it out for the range trip.

We don't have ATT papers anymore, they are said to be "attached" to the RPAL, but this is how they are attached, by expanded conditions and the completed registration of the firearm. I'd agree it is grey to us in terms of explaining it well, but that doesn't mean it is grey to the mechanics of the law.

To take another example, suppose you are getting a hunting license for something were there is a draw. You might learn you've won a spot from the completed draw by some online process or an email. You still need to wait for the license to be in your hands before you can hunt that game.

As I understand it the OP has a new RPAL from scratch, not an upgrade from a PAL. I've never been in that situation, so question for the OP, did your license come with special conditions attached, and a list of those special conditions attached?

When C-42 came into force I was told by the CFO here in Ontario that the conditions are attached electronically, and that I did not have to wait for my new license card.

Interested to see if the CFC consider a brand new RPAL a "renewal".

Whole different ball of wax from the reg cert though, as the ATT in fact IS a transport document.

 

[RangeBob]

The way I see it, the NoT either IS a registration certificate, or it IS NOT a registration certificate.

The NoT is not a registration certificate.

The question is whether the NoT, which has the registration certificate number on it, is proof that you are the "holder" of a registration certificate.
Since in order to have a registration certificate number you must have a registration certificate in the CFRO database. The number is proof of, and the index to, a valid registration certificate for you and that gun (thus you are the holder in that sense), you just don't have it in your hand yet (which is holder in another sense).

The next question is if you can convince a cop of that, and then if you can convince a court of that.
It's probably cheaper & easier to wait.

 

[metalninja]

I did not know that I will be getting or need a new RPAL as well. My RPAL says standard conditions apply and on the back it says possession restricted and non-restricted. No other conditions are there.
Does that mean I now have to wait for a new RPAL as well?

Thanks everyone for all the great info.
I will not be taking the chance and will wait for my registration certificate to arrive before going to Range.

 

[labradort]

Under special conditions for the second RPAL, you would find:

"Transport of restricted firearms and/or prohibited handguns (12(6.1)) possessed for the purpose of target practice to and from all shooting clubs and ranges approved under section 29 of the Firearms Act."

These conditions are NOT PRINTED ON THE PLASTIC. Look at the PAPER which held the RPAL glued on. If you're like many people, that paper goes in the trash like the paper that held your banking card, etc., in the mail. It doesn't work like any other plastic card you have. This seemingly piece of "blah, blah, blah" paper holding the plastic license is part of the license! Keep it. Copy it. Carry it.

 

[IJ22]

The NoT is not a registration certificate.

The question is whether the NoT, which has the registration certificate number on it, is proof that you are the "holder" of a registration certificate.
Since in order to have a registration certificate number you must have a registration certificate in the CFRO database. The number is proof of, and the index to, a valid registration certificate for you and that gun (thus you are the holder in that sense), you just don't have it in your hand yet (which is holder in another sense).

The next question is if you can convince a cop of that, and then if you can convince a court of that.
It's probably cheaper & easier to wait.

Fair enough, that's way too esoteric for me. Let me rephrase thusly: All the powers vested in the little piece of paper titled "Registration Certificate" are also vested in the little piece of paper called the "Notice of Transfer (Buyer)" .

I did not know that I will be getting or need a new RPAL as well. My RPAL says standard conditions apply and on the back it says possession restricted and non-restricted. No other conditions are there.
Does that mean I now have to wait for a new RPAL as well?

You won't need to wait for your new RPAL, but DO call the CFO to confirm that the conditions have been added to your license. That should have happened automatically when your new gun was registered to you but it's a good idea to make sure. Your new license card will say "Special conditions are attached" with the paper containing the added details labradort described.

I will not be taking the chance and will wait for my registration certificate to arrive before going to Range.

A prudent choice. Unfortunate, but prudent.

Merry Christmas everyone!!

 

[MarkR]

It depends on backlog. It's sent from a different place. In my case they have my email address so the transfer cert is sent there. I've found it is normally within 2 weeks in my region. It's going to be slower this time of the year due to Christmas mail volume. The CFO likely would tell you 4 to 6 weeks as a canned answer since they don't have tabs on what happens at Miramachi and the like.

Last two for me have both been 1 1/2 weeks.