Canuck
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I agree. A gun forum can't be all things for everyone. I think it has enough happening right now. Leave it the way it is.
Alternative News Media - Where does it belong on GOC?
- Thread starter harbl_the_cat
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I agree. A gun forum can't be all things for everyone. I think it has enough happening right now. Leave it the way it is.
For once i agree with harble. why not have a tin foil hat forum. if you dont like it,dont bother reading it. plus why should people looking for advice in prepping for natural deseasters have to be grouped in with the tin foil hat crowd.
we live in canada where a real problem could be getting stuck in a ditch on a snow day where having a kit like a blanket and large candle could save a life. why have these people scroll through posts about "the elite"
we live in canada where a real problem could be getting stuck in a ditch on a snow day where having a kit like a blanket and large candle could save a life. why have these people scroll through posts about "the elite"
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Forbes/Hutton
Have gun, will travel.
Strewth
New member
Honestly I see a lot of this going on.
So the news forum is a bit more strict and some 'news' must now go in the off topic? My life seems to be going on...
I'm over it, no more KDX and Harbl tinfoil in the news section and now it's moved to off topic, actually makes browsing easier and saves me a few seconds out of my day
. I may not like being told what is and isn't news, and I'm fully capable of not opening a thread I don't want to read. However if I want to seek out 'alternative media' I can do so without the perpetual soapbox some of the members seem to get on.
See you can still post all of the tinfoil and alternative stuff you like, just do it in off topic. Perhaps the dislike is that people don't see their post counts go up now
?
So the news forum is a bit more strict and some 'news' must now go in the off topic? My life seems to be going on...
I'm over it, no more KDX and Harbl tinfoil in the news section and now it's moved to off topic, actually makes browsing easier and saves me a few seconds out of my day
. I may not like being told what is and isn't news, and I'm fully capable of not opening a thread I don't want to read. However if I want to seek out 'alternative media' I can do so without the perpetual soapbox some of the members seem to get on.See you can still post all of the tinfoil and alternative stuff you like, just do it in off topic. Perhaps the dislike is that people don't see their post counts go up now
?
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JustBen
Resident Combine Pilot
As much as I don't mind the occasional tin-foil or "alternative media" thread, I can see the point of not having a dedicated section for them. To do as CGN did and complete sensor them is overkill. Moving forward, if you want to post the odd thread that is a bit wacky, okay. However, if anyone wants to get up on a soap box and tell us that the illuminati/aliens/gubermint/CIA/russians/mutants/global warming/PETA/etc are out to get us, there are lots of other places on the internet where this can be done.
Alternatively, tinfoil threads could be placed in the humor section.
Alternatively, tinfoil threads could be placed in the humor section.
As much as I don't mind the occasional tin-foil or "alternative media" thread, I can see the point of not having a dedicated section for them. To do as CGN did and completely censor them is overkill. Moving forward, if you want to post the odd thread that is a bit wacky, okay. However, if anyone wants to get up on a soap box and tell us that the illuminati/aliens/gubermint/CIA/russians/mutants/global warming/PETA/etc are out to get us, there are lots of other places on the internet where this can be done. Alternatively, tinfoil threads could be placed in the humor section.
x2.
Well the thing is the main stream news deliberately ignores, fakes or misrepresents a lot of important news stories that most of the time, are covered accurately long in advance on the blogosphere/alternative news - especially financial news.
The best example I can think of is a lot of "tin foil hat" blogs were screaming out for people to buy precious metals for the past decade, including several that timed entry and exit points in the market almost perfectly. A lot of these same sites called the US housing crisis, the financial crisis, and the various stock market crashes of the past decade - if you go through some of those sites (the good ones at least that don't doctor their history), you can see some that posted information that made or saved their readers a LOT of money.
Likewise, a lot of those same blogs/news sits have very interesting political and world event stories on them you'll probably never hear in the main stream media. Most importantly, a lot of microblogs from foreign countries give very good coverage of events happening in their region of the world that is almost always ignored or misrepresented in the Western main stream media.
It's not a new or secret phenomenon either - just look at this news story from the first gulf war that was obviously fake, but also ran over the air on CNN!
The thing is that the blogosphere/alternate news media is enormous and very difficult to filter through for accurate information. It's not impossible, but the best way, I've found is through a network of others who share a common interest on particular subjects. The problem with CGN moving the "tin-foil" to the OT forum isn't that it's in a new forum, but that it's in a forum that's not readily publicly accessible. Likewise, with their move to lock the news forum making it a "permission only" forum and threatening to ban anyone who doesn't comply.
As an IT professional, let me tell you that a simple step like making forum access permission based and making pretty rigid usage policies like that kills a HUGE amount of traffic and traffic is the key driver to the alternative media and to extracting reliable and accurate information from it.
Sometimes such restrictions are merited - for example preventing non-tech savvy people access to a forum that allows for selling of goods and services (like the EE or marketplace). However to facilitate a rapid and free exchange of information - it is a HUGE deterrent AND detriment.
The best example I can think of is a lot of "tin foil hat" blogs were screaming out for people to buy precious metals for the past decade, including several that timed entry and exit points in the market almost perfectly. A lot of these same sites called the US housing crisis, the financial crisis, and the various stock market crashes of the past decade - if you go through some of those sites (the good ones at least that don't doctor their history), you can see some that posted information that made or saved their readers a LOT of money.
Likewise, a lot of those same blogs/news sits have very interesting political and world event stories on them you'll probably never hear in the main stream media. Most importantly, a lot of microblogs from foreign countries give very good coverage of events happening in their region of the world that is almost always ignored or misrepresented in the Western main stream media.
It's not a new or secret phenomenon either - just look at this news story from the first gulf war that was obviously fake, but also ran over the air on CNN!
The thing is that the blogosphere/alternate news media is enormous and very difficult to filter through for accurate information. It's not impossible, but the best way, I've found is through a network of others who share a common interest on particular subjects. The problem with CGN moving the "tin-foil" to the OT forum isn't that it's in a new forum, but that it's in a forum that's not readily publicly accessible. Likewise, with their move to lock the news forum making it a "permission only" forum and threatening to ban anyone who doesn't comply.
As an IT professional, let me tell you that a simple step like making forum access permission based and making pretty rigid usage policies like that kills a HUGE amount of traffic and traffic is the key driver to the alternative media and to extracting reliable and accurate information from it.
Sometimes such restrictions are merited - for example preventing non-tech savvy people access to a forum that allows for selling of goods and services (like the EE or marketplace). However to facilitate a rapid and free exchange of information - it is a HUGE deterrent AND detriment.
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I do agree with you Harbl, MSM is bought in order to not publish and air a good portion of current events.
However you do have to realize that these forums are businesses, and that does include GOC. Now GOC does hold itself to a different set of rules than other competing forums, but once they also become large enough to be pulling in + or - $75K by sponsorships and paying business members you can pretty well guarantee things will be a little different from the small community feeling we currently have here. At that point it would be in GOC's best interest to listen when the majority of paying businesses and sponsors say they don't want something on the site, and I wouldn't be suprised that if it comes to losing the sponsor base or tightening rules that GOC tightens some rules. The admin group may be against it now in wake of the past years events and this place still having new forum smell, but just wait until the decision is $$$$$$ vs rules and regulation and you can pretty well predict what will win out.
Of course a forum is useless without the membership, but I haven't noticed that large of an outcry, just the usual people that complain at every little change doing their usual (and this is as simple as smilies FFS). If 50% of the membership wanted alternative media and would walk without it, well then they might be listened to. As it is it's a very select few, and others that are also vocal just don't like limitiations on free speech (understandably, I'm one of them but I got over it as it's a PRIVATE owned business).
The hard truth of the matter is a sub-forum for tinfoilers might very well torpedo GOC's attempt at large sponsorships. If the big players in this industry wanted to advertise to the alternative media crowd then they would do so directly. I could very well see from a business prospective that if I were to choose from competing advertising agencies and my business depended on semi-professionalism I wouldn't go with the one who catered to the fringe element. Such a catering to the alternative media crowd could very well hurt GOC's attempt at sponsorship more than 'be well received', and if it is well received it's a select few members that don't bring any $$$$ to the table where as a sponsor does.
Now as I've explained it from a GOC perspective; why would it be any different with any other community also generating revenue through advertising? They're evil when they do it but GOC is good to do the same? You have to think of it as a business, and business may not do so well or look professional with a bunch of people constantly screaming "THE END IS FRIGGIN NIGH!!". Really what you're proposing is a Conservative version of Rabble, and you know what kind of credibility they have.
However you do have to realize that these forums are businesses, and that does include GOC. Now GOC does hold itself to a different set of rules than other competing forums, but once they also become large enough to be pulling in + or - $75K by sponsorships and paying business members you can pretty well guarantee things will be a little different from the small community feeling we currently have here. At that point it would be in GOC's best interest to listen when the majority of paying businesses and sponsors say they don't want something on the site, and I wouldn't be suprised that if it comes to losing the sponsor base or tightening rules that GOC tightens some rules. The admin group may be against it now in wake of the past years events and this place still having new forum smell, but just wait until the decision is $$$$$$ vs rules and regulation and you can pretty well predict what will win out.
Of course a forum is useless without the membership, but I haven't noticed that large of an outcry, just the usual people that complain at every little change doing their usual (and this is as simple as smilies FFS). If 50% of the membership wanted alternative media and would walk without it, well then they might be listened to. As it is it's a very select few, and others that are also vocal just don't like limitiations on free speech (understandably, I'm one of them but I got over it as it's a PRIVATE owned business).
The hard truth of the matter is a sub-forum for tinfoilers might very well torpedo GOC's attempt at large sponsorships. If the big players in this industry wanted to advertise to the alternative media crowd then they would do so directly. I could very well see from a business prospective that if I were to choose from competing advertising agencies and my business depended on semi-professionalism I wouldn't go with the one who catered to the fringe element. Such a catering to the alternative media crowd could very well hurt GOC's attempt at sponsorship more than 'be well received', and if it is well received it's a select few members that don't bring any $$$$ to the table where as a sponsor does.
Now as I've explained it from a GOC perspective; why would it be any different with any other community also generating revenue through advertising? They're evil when they do it but GOC is good to do the same? You have to think of it as a business, and business may not do so well or look professional with a bunch of people constantly screaming "THE END IS FRIGGIN NIGH!!". Really what you're proposing is a Conservative version of Rabble, and you know what kind of credibility they have.
I understand that principle very well, Loki. The thing though, is that not all of the alternative media is calling for the end of the world, and even then those that are make tangible recommendations surrounding how to practically prepare. Oddly enough, most of those recommendations favour physical preparedness and tangible investing. If anything, I think that is more of an attractive prospect for firearms businesses - since it basically is a large driver of demand for the products and services they offer.
I think the reality is that the main stream media is so caught up in maintaining a narrative that "Everything in the World is Fine, within some general constraints," that most of the narratives in the alternative media SEEM like they are pessimistic an calling for the EOTWAWKI. I think the reality though is that the main stream media is almost completely disconnected from reality, where as the alternative media has many outlets that are much more in tune with what is actually going on in the world.
I think the reality is that the main stream media is so caught up in maintaining a narrative that "Everything in the World is Fine, within some general constraints," that most of the narratives in the alternative media SEEM like they are pessimistic an calling for the EOTWAWKI. I think the reality though is that the main stream media is almost completely disconnected from reality, where as the alternative media has many outlets that are much more in tune with what is actually going on in the world.
JustBen
Resident Combine Pilot
I mean this in the most honest and sincere way possible; have you considered that maybe its the other way around? If alternative media were constantly correct in their predictions, it'd be one thing. More often than not, its the complete opposite. But hey, a broken clock is still right twice a day.
Like I said earlier, most of the alternate media is wrong, inaccurate, or has an agenda behind it. The thing is though, that the alternative media is ENORMOUS - compared to the main stream media which is really a small band of corporations all spouting the same thing.
The strength of the alternative media isn't that it's all accurate - but that it's interactive and that it can be held accountable by it's viewership - unlike the main stream media which are big corporations funded by other big corporations and government.
A good example is a channel I used to subscribe to called "The Day Trader Show" with an analyst named Don Harrold. He had some pretty good incites and stories on his channel/website - but when I dug into his archive of stories, I noticed there were some really big gaps. I dug a bit deeper and found some of his disgruntled viewers, listening to his advice, made some bad trades, missed out on some huge opportunities - and it cost them a lot of money. Being a bit of scheister, Don deleted all the videos and articles where he made bad calls from his website and channel. However, many of those bad calls were archived by his disgruntled ex-viewers - and when I watched them I was pretty surprised and stopped subscribing to his channel and visiting his website. Many others did the same and it's pretty evident in his subscriber base and website traffic.
Conversely, another analyst "StellaConcepts" made some absolutely brilliant calls (and a few bad ones) and he NEVER censored his channel (even when he made bad calls). So I regularly visit his site and subscribe to his channel, and so do many others.
The thing is the alternative media is the absolute embodiment of a free market. Providers of alternative news MUST have quality information, be honest and open or else they will get no viewers and thus, no revenue. That is not the case with the main stream media who, in all probability, if they ever hit on financial hard times from no-viewership, would either be bailed out by the government since they are "too big to fail." They will never get to that point because all the main stream media outlets are in bed with extremely large, well financed special interest who use them as propaganda tools. Just think about the US presidential elections - the MSM is the biggest tool in US politics and no one who can't afford to be on the MSM stands a chance at being elected.
The thing is, in order to get the most out of the alternative media, community involvement is necessary. There are a LOT of sharks out in the alternative media, but there are also a lot of genuine, honest, intelligent people as well. What I've observed if If an article has interesting or useful information, it gets shared. If it doesn't - it get's ignored - simple as that. This feedback loop is incredibly powerful, but harnessing it means allowing it's consumers to be unfettered and unregulated - which is why I think CGN made a BIG mistake essentially banning it from their site.
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Sure, but I'll have to point out that a good portion is, that being said I can quote Blacksmithden for this one;
blacksmithden said:
In other words while there might be some, or even a majority should the membership remain mature, of relevant news articles should you open the gates to such a sub-forum expect a tribute to Alex Jones, etc, etc. Allowing for such an outlet will eventually cater to absolute nonsense tinfoil, axe to grind, and immature debates degrading into pure namecalling to win the debate.
This community is attempting a professional, family, and mature based feel that such a sub forum stands a very good chance of derailing. Once such a derail to the public image has occured it's hard to come back from, if it can be at all. Which again not to mention that from a limited supply of advertising funds a business will never tell you why they choose not to spend those funds with a business, they just vote with their wallet like most.
However either choice of a tinfoil sub-forum or not makes no real difference to me if that's what they want to do with this forum, I'm mature enough to not participate should I not want to. I just see it as the exact opposite of the values and direction that GOC has stated it stands for.
Well maybe my choice of words is a bit silly. How about "Alternative Media" as opposed to "Tin-Foil hat."
The thing is, truth has a way of speaking for itself. What I see in the main stream media is a whole lot of half-truth and outright lies - in many cases deliberately so. Granted, in the alternate media you see the same thing, but if you look you also see the opposite.
Where you find the truth, I think it's worth sharing. My personal picks: Ron Paul, Peter Schiff, Michael Maloney, Marc Faber, Jim Rogers, Doug Casey, even Robert Kiyosaki (though he's more mainstream and a bit dodgy) you don't tend to hear about through the Main Stream Media - except to be lambasted and attacked. Through the alternative media if you really dig, you can hear what they said 10-15 years ago.
If you talk about "professionalism" genuine professionalism in my book is not afraid of the ugly reality of the world that's out there. True professionals don't discount anything, especially information sources, without engaging in critical thought and personal investigation first and after they have, are very specific in their reasoning and approach in doing so. To do the opposite, I'd say is completely unprofessional.
Also to your thought about ad revenue - the important thing to consider is that what drives advertisers isn't the just content on a site - it's the traffic. The thing I see about CGN, is that they have such large volume of traffic, (96,000 users) they can afford to implement policy that alienate some of their users.
My thought to having this discussion, is in wanting to see a web community that's an alternative to CGN and one way I think they can do that is by learning from a bad policy they are implementing over there that WILL cost them some users.
Personally, while I know the provisions in our countries legal framework surrounding free speech and association refer to public forums and not private businesses. I totally respect private businesses rights to do so - even if I disagree or do not benefit from such actions.
The thing is though, that I think there are LOTS of people and appropriately, lots of DEMAND for private businesses that welcome and facilitate free speech and association - even if the optics of that speech and association are unpopular.
The other thing is, vendors know that if you're an Alex Jones Tin Foil Hatter, if you're a crochety old Fudd, or if you're a tacticool airsoft Ninja - you still probably have a credit card, and I don't think most places willing to advertise on a site like CGN (or GOC) care if any of those people buy their products or services in a legal fashion.
The thing is, truth has a way of speaking for itself. What I see in the main stream media is a whole lot of half-truth and outright lies - in many cases deliberately so. Granted, in the alternate media you see the same thing, but if you look you also see the opposite.
Where you find the truth, I think it's worth sharing. My personal picks: Ron Paul, Peter Schiff, Michael Maloney, Marc Faber, Jim Rogers, Doug Casey, even Robert Kiyosaki (though he's more mainstream and a bit dodgy) you don't tend to hear about through the Main Stream Media - except to be lambasted and attacked. Through the alternative media if you really dig, you can hear what they said 10-15 years ago.
If you talk about "professionalism" genuine professionalism in my book is not afraid of the ugly reality of the world that's out there. True professionals don't discount anything, especially information sources, without engaging in critical thought and personal investigation first and after they have, are very specific in their reasoning and approach in doing so. To do the opposite, I'd say is completely unprofessional.
Also to your thought about ad revenue - the important thing to consider is that what drives advertisers isn't the just content on a site - it's the traffic. The thing I see about CGN, is that they have such large volume of traffic, (96,000 users) they can afford to implement policy that alienate some of their users.
My thought to having this discussion, is in wanting to see a web community that's an alternative to CGN and one way I think they can do that is by learning from a bad policy they are implementing over there that WILL cost them some users.
Personally, while I know the provisions in our countries legal framework surrounding free speech and association refer to public forums and not private businesses. I totally respect private businesses rights to do so - even if I disagree or do not benefit from such actions.
The thing is though, that I think there are LOTS of people and appropriately, lots of DEMAND for private businesses that welcome and facilitate free speech and association - even if the optics of that speech and association are unpopular.
The other thing is, vendors know that if you're an Alex Jones Tin Foil Hatter, if you're a crochety old Fudd, or if you're a tacticool airsoft Ninja - you still probably have a credit card, and I don't think most places willing to advertise on a site like CGN (or GOC) care if any of those people buy their products or services in a legal fashion.
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Sure. So what are you trying to achieve here with a sub forum that can't already be posted in; news and world headlines, prepping for the future, and off topic? There is currently no posting rules for the news forum like there is in CGN and you can post alternate media there. Why is a seperate sub forum required for something that can be posted in one of three places already?
I'm sorry, I kind of got into a philosophical rant about my beliefs surrounding the alternative media. If it's cool to post it in the news forum, that's cool too and I really appreciate GOC's tolerance.
I just got a bit carried away analysing CGN's move to censor it. I guess it kind of destroyed my faith in that place - seeing that there were a number of posters putting up alternative media articles and some good discussions on them - then the thought police mod-hammer hit.
It's too bad they have a pretty happening My Little Pony thread in their lounge forum, otherwise I'd probably never visit there (I tried and will keep trying to see if I can convince some other bronies to come here).
Again, my apologies (I tend to do that, but not with malicious intent).
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